#23042454607 on US server in Damage Dealing

Cata changes with itemization.

Healio 2010-02-06 22:10:00 [original thread]

Correct me if I am wrong. I thoughtthat stats were being dummied down so it was easier to make choiceswith gear etc. However, for melee the two most annoying stats willremain on the gear. Hit and expertise, the two stats most meleemake posts about wondering how much they need etc. This isconfusing to me because if you wanted to dummy the stats down whywould u include those two and not armor pen or attack power?

With casters, intellect is the most boring stat, and I think mostof us agree that your making a mistake by removing spell power.Spell power is the most interesting stat casters have because ofdamage modifiers and things that increase spell power. Changing itto intellect makes rolling a caster alot more boring. "oh hey i'mup to 4000 intellect" doesn't sound as cool as "oh hey i'm up to5000 spellpower". What is it that made devs decide it was the otherway around?


Ghostcrawler 2010-02-06 23:15:00 [original thread]


Q u o t e:
Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that stats were beingdummied down so it was easier to make choices with gearetc.



Actually, we aren't trying to make gear choices easier. We likewhen it's a hard call on whether to upgrade vs. stick with what youhave, etc. In designer parlance terms, that is an "interestingdecision." Non-interesting decisions are typicallyno-brainers.

We want to remove some of the confusion over a complicated statsystem, which we think we can do without reducing the system'sdepth. In fact, the other motivation for the stats overhaul was tosolve some of the problems where a certain stat trumps all or acertain stat is always junk. If we nail that, then gear choiceswill actually be harder in Cataclysm, not easier.

As an example, when you aren't close to a crit cap and when buffsdon't provide so much crit and talents don't provide so much crit,then haste vs. crit can be a pretty interesting choice. Haste letsyou cast spells faster, but crit makes those spells you cast hitharder. At a very basic level you are choosing more spells vs.bigger spells, but because of a number of other factors, it's notthat cut and dried. Haste may provide a dps increase for a casteraccording to a spreadsheet, but it depends and it might cause youto change your rotation. If you have spell A that hits so hard thatyou need to use it on cooldown, and spell B gets boosted by haste,then you can run into the situation where more haste on B isn't animprovement because you can't squeeze in another B before it's timeto use A again. If you aren't able to capitalize on the extrahaste, then more isn't always good for you. (That's in an idealworld. The way stats work in Icecrown, if you like haste, it'snearly always a no-brainer stat for you.)

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, becausethey really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the sameway. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or ifyou're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn prettyquickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for youor just an okay stat.

Many of your gear choices in Cataclysm should come down to hastevs. crit vs. mastery. You may still have one of those you like themost, but it shouldn't be double the value of the other stats, soyou may have to look at the total package of stats on that item (DoI need more hit? If I take that hit, can I swap it out somewhereelse?) Add in set bonuses and procs, and I'm not sure the gearchoice will be all that easy, but it should be easier tounderstand.











Ghostcrawler 2010-02-09 00:16:00 [original thread]


Q u o t e:



This puts people back on simcraft spreadsheets and gear optimizersfor a net nil change. if all choices DPS were identical then therewould be a decision process, but typically one will be the best andbe mathematically higher valued and therfore used.

I guess my question is 2 part. Philosophically what are you tryingto achieve with this change? Make stats more on par or add morecomplexity to gear options (which as I stated above are going topush people to RAWR/Simcraft/MaxDPS/Rhadatip.

I'm fine simplifying stats, but the origianl goal was to make thisless confusing if I recall, if that isn't the case why change thestat reliance at all?

Q u o t e:

Nice post.

It's weird, this almost feels like they're making changes for noother reason than design purity (not wanting "useless" stats).Normally it's players who obsess over that, Blizzard usually hasbetter reasons for making sweeping mechanics changes.



We aren't trying to kill spreadsheets or simulators, and I'm noteven sure we could. The situations where two pieces have differentstats but provide an equal dps increase are always going to berare.

The problem we're actually trying to solve is where one stat is sofar superior to other stats that the rest of the item isirrelevant. Currently, most casters prefer haste over crit to theextent where they might use an item from a previous tier. That'snot ideal (though obviously something else could be going on withtheir decision, like they are passing to someone else to be nice orthey have a better upgrade in mind on the next boss or whatever).In Cataclysm, given an item with haste versus one with crit yourspreadsheet might still tell you the haste item will provide moreof an upgrade. But hopefully it won't be such an upgrade that thedecision becomes a no-brainer. Hopefully the other stats on theitem will come into play more. It's too easy currently to focus onThe Best Stat to the exclusion of all else. (I'm not talking aboutstats such as spell power, attack power or Strength, because formost of your pieces, those just scale with item level. I'm talkingabout the secondary stats where the real gearing decisions comefrom.)


















Ghostcrawler 2010-02-09 00:18:00 [original thread]


Q u o t e:
Figuring out which of two items is better for you? Asdifficult, maybe harder.
Figuring out what the stats on an item actually do? Easier.



I like Lhivera's quote here too.




Ghostcrawler 2010-02-09 00:25:00 [original thread]


Q u o t e:
I am interested to hear a similar explanation of how they intend tokeep gear choices interesting for Healers in particular. Becauseright now I don't see it coming down as anything other thanstacking haste and intellect.



That's a relative softball question, because the problem is healersoverheal by so much now *and* can get away with it. If you actuallycare about your mana pool, then regen (Spirit in Cataclysm)matters. If you actually care about mana, then getting bigger heals(such as getting crits) matters too.

Now imagine that as a druid, your mastery stat does somethinginteresting to your hots. It has to be *interesting* or it's justgoing to mimic the effects of spell power (Int in Cataclysm). Let'ssay mastery increased the duration of your Rejuv, but did sowithout reducing the healing per tick. Now Mastery helpsthroughput, but doesn't help burst healing as much as crit. Ifhaste also affects how often your hots tick, then you might getsome interesting gameplay out of playing off of longer hots thattick more frequently. If you don't need to spam heals as much asyou do today, then reducing cast time through haste isn't asimportant to a healer, though it still might be desirable. Now youcan make interesting (we hope) choices about whether you want morecrit, more haste, more mastery or more spirit.